Why manufacturers don't ask help from independent tuners to develop their cars?

"RotaryLover" (rotarylover) 10/28/2014 at 09:46 • Filed to: None

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I don't mean NISMO, AMG and all their inhouse tuners. I have a dream that Mazda gets help from Racing Beat and Re-Amemiya to develop the next gen RX-7/8/9. Wouldn't it be possible?

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > RotaryLover 10/28/2014 at 09:52

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Honestly there's not a huge amount they do that Mazda can't. Their tuning parts improve certain aspects of the car by changing emissions, economy, comfort, drivability etc etc. Mazda doesn't do things like that because they aren't allowed, not because they can't.

RotaryLover > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 10/28/2014 at 09:56

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With all the efficient cars they do, they can't just go full out for one car at least?

Too many M's > RotaryLover 10/28/2014 at 09:58

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I have a feeling there isn't the return on investment when it comes to that. Look at the Mini GP, that had all kinds of bits that would be added from aftermarket development and the cost was astronomical compared to a regular Cooper S. A private tuner also would be required to have all their parts meet all new car safety standards. In Germany, everything that goes on the car must be TUV certified which is $$$ on its own and it would be harder for a smaller tuner company to front that even with manufacturer support.

Despite what we believe about car companies and making great cars for drivers, there is a little thing called the bottom line and profit that 99% of all cars have to adhere to. It's a cold fact but true. A strong aftermarket is nice but I don't think we would see small tuner options on a "Build & Price" portion of a website unless is was a carbon fiber mirror cover.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > RotaryLover 10/28/2014 at 09:59

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There's regulation against it I believe. Also in certain countries bad economy will doom the car. Bring out a £30k sports car here that only gets 15 mpg and you're looking for trouble.

RotaryLover > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 10/28/2014 at 10:07

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What if with the help of them, they bring up the MPGs? We never know.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > RotaryLover 10/28/2014 at 10:11

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As an engineer I can say that's unlikely. Raising economy other than the simpler stuff (reduce weight etc) can be very in depth. We simulate injector spray in detail for example, to maximise efficiency. It's very boring, professional work. Smaller tuning companies do sometimes have that level of engineering knowledge, but large car companies all have that kind of expertise on staff already.

RotaryLover > Too many M's 10/28/2014 at 10:11

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Killing my dreams...but I meant more as a advisor, finding tricks together to fix issues on the engine, improve the MPG and such.

RotaryLover > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 10/28/2014 at 10:15

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Damn...

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > RotaryLover 10/28/2014 at 10:16

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Yep, this is why I fall asleep in lectures sometimes...

RotaryLover > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 10/28/2014 at 10:24

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And why I'm not an engineer...

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > RotaryLover 10/28/2014 at 10:27

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We mathematically modelled bubbles the other day. Several pages of calculation to work out how bubbles form during boiling... It's a difficult subject at times.

RotaryLover > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 10/28/2014 at 10:32

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:O Wat????? How do you keep your sanity?

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > RotaryLover 10/28/2014 at 10:34

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Daydreaming and reading oppo. Exam times when I actually have to demonstrate that I can do these calculations I pretty much lose my sanity.

Sam > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 10/28/2014 at 10:47

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What field of engineering? I'm starting a degree in motorsports engineering next year.

MHunter905 > RotaryLover 10/28/2014 at 10:56

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Sure it is possible..... But it won't happen because Mazda is no longer interested in developing any rotary drive trains. They couldn't make them efficient or clean enough. I don't like it either but its the accountants that run the show at Mazda not the enthusiasts :(

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > Sam 10/28/2014 at 11:55

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Bachelors in mechanical engineering. I also did a diploma in engineering before that. Good field to get into, but it can be a little rough at times.

RotaryLover > MHunter905 10/28/2014 at 12:19

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I disagree. If Mazda managed to get hybrid like fuel economy without adding a hybrid drivetrain with their engines, they will find a way to make rotaries clean and more efficient. It's Mazda's pride and joy along with the Miata basically, there's no way in hell that they gonna abandon them. I think there's a few ways to make them efficient, like billet rotors and an electric motor that works during the first 2k to compensate for the mass they have to make them going. Something like that..there are ways to keep the rotaries alive. And keep in mind that piston engines have what...more or less 50 years of development more than rotaries? If they were both conceived at the same time, I bet they would be equal by now. It will still be a exotic engine tho.

MHunter905 > RotaryLover 10/28/2014 at 13:56

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Raed up on the Rotary engine a little more. It was never Mazda's design and no one has been able to develop a clean burning and efficient rotary. They are almost like a 2 stroke in that gas and oil mix together a little in the combustion chamber. The basic design make efficiency very difficult. All Mazda has done with their conventional engines is run them at very high compression and make the cars lighter by putting more plastic and less metal in them. Trust me the rotary will not likely be powering any production road car in the future. It may seem that I don't like rotary's but I really do. I have a friend with a very powerful original 1993 LHD Canadian FD RX7 and man is it a great car and very fast. You may be on to something there though a hybrid rotary drive train does sound interesting. But there isn't anyone interested in doing anything with the tech anymore.

RotaryLover > MHunter905 10/28/2014 at 17:25

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I know Mazda played with the idea of using a rotary as a range extender on a electric Mazda 2. Have a look. Not quite what I wanted it to turn into...but hey they are trying.

wallaby13 > RotaryLover 10/28/2014 at 22:28

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There's a multitude of reasons. Sometimes it's emissions reasons that keeps power down. Sometimes it's design limitations that keeps OEM's from matching the tuning community. The OEM's have strict design limitations for projects and those must be met. The aftermarket couldn't really care unless it breaks.

One example could be noise. OEM's install baffling on the intake pipes to suppress noise. Intake pipes are usually the first thing upgraded but with more noise. Also that steel or aluminum intake pipe is far more expensive than the injection molded plastic pipe the OEM paid for.

On the BMW N54 engine the FMIC is considered vastly undersized for the car. But for the OEM it met all the design targets. Why spend more $$$ on lower IC temps if you've already met the desired targets?

claramag, Mustaco Master > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 11/06/2014 at 12:35

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